Fantasy, Myth & Art - In the Garden of Monsters by Crystal King

In this episode, I'm chatting with Crystal King, author of In the Garden of Monsters listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction.

View the video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/WElAb9vxuAI

• The genesis of In the Garden of Monsters and the decision to write a novel that incorporated elements of fantasy and the Gothic
• Inspired by the sacro bosco (sacred wood) at Bomarzo in Italy and its relationship to Surrealist artist Salvador Dalí in the 1950s and to the Hades and Persephone myth
• Video of Salvador Dalí in Bomarzo made in 1954 - view it on Crystal's website at https://www.crystalking.com/
• Deep dive into the life and work of Salvador Dalí and his problematical opinions - he'd be cancelled in two seconds today! But he was a brilliant artist.
• Role of pomegranates in the novel and their relationship to the retelling of the Hades and Persephone myth
• Summary of the original myth - Demeter, Hades, Persephone
• The role of food in the novel; a downloadable cookbook is available from Crystal's website.
• Reading from In the Garden of Monsters
• Role played by memory (or lack of) in the novel
• Women artists and Dalí's opinions of them and his problematical relationship to women in general
• One thing Crystal learned from writing this novel that she didn't know before
• What Crystal is working on now

Press Play now & be sure to check out In the Garden of Monsters on Art In Fiction: https://www.artinfiction.com/novels/in-the-garden-of-monsters

Crystal King's website: https://www.crystalking.com/

Music Credit
Paganology, performed by The Paul Plimley Trio; composed by Gregg Simpson

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Transcript

Carol Cram

Hello and welcome. I'm Carol Cram, host of The Art In Fiction Podcast. This episode features Crystal King, author of In the Garden of Monsters listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction. Crystal is also the author of The Chef’s Secret and Feast of Sorrow, which was longlisted for the Center for Fiction’s First Novel Prize and was a Must Read for the MassBook Awards. She is an author, culinary enthusiast, and marketing expert, and has taught at multiple universities, including Harvard Extension and Boston University. She lives in Boston.

Welcome to The Art In Fiction Podcast, Crystal.

Crystal King

Thanks for having me. 

Carol Cram

It's my pleasure. You know, I think what I loved most about In the Garden of Monsters was how you combined fantasy and mythology with art. And of course, the larger-than-life persona of Salvador Dalí. Tell us about the genesis of In the Garden of Monsters. 

Crystal King

So, I was struggling to sell a book about a Renaissance meat carver, this guy named Vincenzo Cervio. And I was researching Caprarola nearby, and I had gone to this really wild garden during the time I was doing that research.

Fast forward a couple of years, and during the pandemic is when I wrote that book. We started selling it right after the pandemic ended and it just wasn't selling. And I was really frustrated. And my editor came back to me and said, well, Renaissance historical fiction is just not a thing right now. And so, sorry, I'm going to pass. And that was two weeks before Maggie O'Farrell's Marriage Portrait hit the bestseller charts. 

But I was really frustrated. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Kris Waldherr, and she has a couple books that are Gothic fiction: The Lost History of Dreams and Unnatural Creatures, which is about the women of Frankenstein, and I was, like, if I was going to write something that was going to sell, what should I write?

She said, well, Gothics are hot because of course she would say that. And I thought immediately of that garden, this place in Bomarzo, Italy, the Sacro Bosco, which means “the little wood” or “sacred wood”. And I thought that is the perfect place to set a Gothic. 

And then I started going back through my photos of the time that I had been there and realized that there are statues to Hades and Persephone in the garden. There's a mouth of hell, which represents the way to get to Hades. There's a statue of Demeter that is staring right into the mouth of hell waiting for Persephone, and there's a bench of Persephone that's in the garden as well as other monsters, Cerberus and dragons and sirens.

And so, okay, that's interesting. Hades and Persephone. And then I discovered that Salvador Dalí had gone there in 1948. And he filmed this tiny little movie, which is super interesting. It's maybe a minute to three minutes long. And I thought, okay, if I were going to push this all into one story, what would it look like?

And, In the Garden of Monsters took me about a year to write. I was just really thrown right into it. 

Carol Cram

Wow. That's quite quick actually. Is that quick for you?

Crystal King

It is, yes. My previous books took me a lot longer, but I just really loved this story. I had such a good time writing it. 

Carol Cram

Yes, I actually saw that video of Dalí in the Garden of Monsters. It's great. You know, that actually put it on the map, didn't it?

Crystal King

Yeah, so if people want to see it, they can go to my website, crystalking.com and I have a page to Dalí and a page of the garden and it's on both of those. But that movie, well, they used to show little, tiny movies before the big cinema feature and that was probably how people saw it back then. And it sparked the interest and the imagination of the world. 

Let me tell you a bit about the garden first. So, the Sacro Bosco was created in the late 1500s by this guy, Vicino Orsini. And when he died, the garden was overgrown for almost 400 years. And it was owned by some rich Italian families, the Della Roveres and the Borgheses and, and in the early ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘40s, all these surrealist artists and poets like Jean Cocteau and Max Ernst and a few other people. They all caught wind of this weird, surreal garden and wanted to go check it out.

And so that's why Dalí went there. He was in town doing sets for the Rome opera and heard about this garden from a friend of his, so he went there. And so that movie, it made people aware of the garden for the first time. And this couple, the Bettini family, they bought the garden, and they renovated it.

And that was in 1954, I think. And so now anybody can go see it. It's a bit off the beaten path, but it's only an hour north of Rome and it's worth the visit. 

Carol Cram

Yes, well, I have been there, as I mentioned to you before we started. Because my husband's a Surrealist, and he's known as a Surrealist painter, and so because Max Ernst went there, which is his ultimate, we had to go to Bomarzo, so we hope to go there again. And actually, I want to talk just a little bit about Surrealism before we start talking a little more about your novel. So, tell us a little bit about Surrealists, and also Dalí's version of it, because, of course, he was kicked out of the official Surrealist group, wasn't he?

Crystal King

Yeah, so my husband's an artist, but he works for an art school here in Boston. And so, I was somewhat familiar with Surrealism. And I love a lot of modern and contemporary art and 20th century and beyond basically. And so, I've always liked it. But I was never that much of a fan of Dalí. The melting clocks just seemed overdone. A lot of the other stuff I just really wasn't as excited about. But when I started thinking, should I include him? I, of course, did a really big deep dive.

I read his autobiographies. I read biographies of other people who knew him. I started trying to understand how he thought about the world as an artist. And he was interesting, to say the least. And then the more I learned about him, the more I wasn't sure if I wanted to include him because he is problematic.

He would have been canceled in two seconds today. He was kicked out of the Surrealists because of his fascist interests, I guess. 

Carol Cram

He admired Franco. Probably not a good thing. 

Crystal King

He has a painting called Hitler Masturbating, so he was just problematic. Also he wrote a letter to Paul Éluard, the poet, who was one of the big Surrealists. And it was a letter that outlined a religion that excluded Black people and that was the straw that broke the camel’s back. They were, like, dude, you're done. So, he left.

So, I wasn't sure I really wanted to include him because I myself don't want to be cancelled. And so, what I did is I tried to play upon the strange and awful nature of Dalí, while recognizing the fact that he was somebody in life who was very charismatic. He was fascinating to other people.

He was a brilliant, brilliant artist. He was absolutely one of the most influential artists of the 20th century. There's just no two ways about it. And there was a lot there that I could do with that. And his wife, Gala, is interesting. She was an astute businesswoman, but she was mean.

And he worshipped her. He worshipped the ground she walked on. She was his muse. Everything in his life revolved around her and his paintings reflect that. He has a tarot deck that she's the Empress on the card. He has dedicated the cookbook to her: Les diners de Gala, which I include in the book.

And so, they were just a fascinating couple to write about. 

Carol Cram

Oh, they, they really are. And I think that was one of the most fun things about the novel, was your portrayal of the Dalís and the way he speaks about himself in the third person. And she is so awful. 

Crystal King 

I tried to stay true to that, but he's hard.

Carol Cram

Yeah. But you did treat the fact that he was not the best guy in the world as well, but it didn't matter. It still worked really well in the novel. He was fascinating. And as you said, he had an amazing influence on modern art.

Crystal King

He painted pomegranates too. He liked, he loved pomegranates. He loved food. And so, several of his paintings, including The Bee Around the Pomegranate, there's one of his most famous paintings. I can never remember the name of it ‘cause it's really long. But there's the bee with a gun and the pomegranates and Gala naked laying around and there's a lion going to devour her. But he has other paintings with pomegranate seeds in it, so he was kind of a natural fit.

Carol Cram

Yes, and of course the pomegranate plays a huge role in the novel, which I couldn't figure out for the longest time, and I guess you're not supposed to figure that out until towards the end. So, what was the thing with the pomegranates, without having a spoiler? 

Crystal King

Yeah, so I mean, it's a Hades and Persephone retelling so if you're familiar with the myth you probably can figure out a bit early on. But what I found is a lot of people aren't familiar with the myth, which I was sort of surprised by because I love the Greek and Roman myths and the ancient stories and to me, I just grew up with those.

I had heard them and read them over and over. But just a really quick rundown of what the myth is, because it's also interesting. The other thing that I found fascinating about learning about the myth itself is that it's not actually a Greek myth. It's a Sicilian myth. And that's because Mount Etna is the home, it's the entrance to hell. So that's where Hades lives, is under Mount Etna.

And the story is this: Hades one day sees this beautiful young woman, Persephone, who is gathering flowers at the base of the volcano. And he goes to his brother, Zeus, the king of the gods and says, Hey, I want that girl. I want her for my wife. And he says, okay, great. That's your sister's daughter, but you know, you can have her. Because Demeter is also their sister. Demeter is Persephone's mother and she's Mother Nature essentially. She and Persephone is considered to be a goddess of nature. 

And so, he goes and takes Persephone, and art loves this story, because if you go back through history, there's countless paintings. One of the most famous and most beautiful sculptures in the world, in my opinion, is Bernini's Rape of Proserpina. 

 And it's the most incredible sculpture. It's Hades forcefully taking her into the underworld. And you can see the marble looks like his fingers on her flesh look real. They don't look like marble. And artists love telling this story. And there are some versions of the myth that sometimes she potentially falls in love with him.

And even in the ancient times, there was some, you know, hints that that could have happened, or at least she fell in love after she got there, and that she became a dutiful wife in some way. And in modern days, we love the love stories. But the way that he kept her in the underworld is the interesting part.

And so, when Demeter discovered that her daughter was missing, she originally searched the world looking for her and she blanketed the world in snow, under a layer of white and all of the livestock and the plants and everything started dying. People started dying and Zeus goes to his sister and says, you can't do that. What are you doing? Stop this. 

And she's, like, where's my daughter? And he says, Oh. Yeah. And goes to Zeus and says, you should let her have her daughter back because we can't have the world dying. And Hades says, Oh, well, except for the fact that she's eaten some pomegranate seeds and for every pomegranate seed that she has eaten, she's supposed to stay in the underworld.

And so, some stories say three, some say six. I use six in my story for the sake of the plot. So, it seems that Hades had a trick up his sleeve when it came to keeping her in the underworld. So, Persephone had eaten six pomegranate seeds. And so, for every pomegranate seed that she had eaten, she has to stay in the underworld. And so, they came to kind of a truce. And so, Persephone would go back into the overworld for some of the time and when she was in the underworld, Demeter would blanket the earth with snow because she's grieving for the loss of her daughter.

When she's getting ready to come back, it's spring and she's getting very excited about this. In summer, she's there and Demeter is super happy. And in the fall, things are starting to look bleak because she's going to go back into the underworld. And so, it's the story of the seasons. And I just had a good time playing with that.

But it was really interesting to me that a lot of people weren't familiar with the myth. 

Carol Cram

Well, you know, I wasn't. And it's interesting because right at the end, of course, but no spoilers, you do kind of, it all wraps up and I went, Oh, that's where it was going, but I'm actually glad I didn't know, really, anything. I had no clue what it was about. I just knew it was about art, and it had Dalí in it. And there were all sorts of interesting things and Bomarzo, so that, yeah, perfect art in fiction. 

Crystal King

What I just told you is not what happens in the book. 

Carol Cram

No. No, that is true. You did change it. But I'm just saying that I really enjoyed the novel even knowing nothing about it. So, I think my point is that you don't need to know the myth. And in a way, it was almost more enjoyable because I had no idea what was going on.

Crystal King

Perfect. 

Carol Cram

In a good way. 

So, let's talk a little bit about food, because food is a huge part of this novel. You obviously really like food, and so tell us about that, and why so much of it. 

Crystal King

So, my first two novels are about culinary figures in history. One of them is Apicius and he is in the center of my novel Feast of Sorrow and his name is on the oldest known cookbook. He's this ancient Roman gourmand. And then I fast forwarded into the Renaissance, and I have a story about Bartolomeo Scoppi. He wrote a cookbook that was published in 1570 that was a best-selling cookbook for almost 200 years after he died. And he was a chef to several popes and cardinals and probably fed Michelangelo, so he was somebody that was my second book. And then I have two other novels about other historical culinary figures in Italy that have yet to be published. So, keep your fingers crossed for me. But I had all this research that I had done on Italian food throughout the centuries.

And so, when it came to having to get Persephone or this model, Julia, who Salvatore Dalí has taken his model, Julia, to the garden. And he's convinced that she is Persephone and he's painting her as Persephone, and he wants her to eat these pomegranate seeds. So, I had a whole bunch of research from all of the work I had done on my previous novels about food in Italian culinary history.

And when it came to the idea of this book, I was playing with how Salvador Dalí has taken this model, Julia, to this garden of stone monsters. And he's going to paint her as Persephone. And in the book, he's kind of convinced that she might be Persephone. And so, there's these elaborate meals that happen every day.

And there's a host that is taking care of them in the garden. This guy, Ignacio, who was very charismatic and handsome. And there's a bunch of love stories going on or some love affair things happening. It's a very sexy book, too. And so, I liked the idea that Dalí is trying to get her to eat these pomegranate seeds.

And Ignacio is providing all this wonderful, incredible food, so I have all these feasts that I take from throughout history because it's a fantastical novel. The feasts are a little bit over the top, particularly on the dinners that Dalí has a hand in. And I take one of the dinners actually based upon some of the ideas that come out in his cookbook, Diners de Gala, which was published in, well, the cover says 1971, which is when he painted that, but I think it was actually published in ‘73.

And it's a whole bunch of French, complicated recipes from restaurants that are still alive, like Maxim's in Paris, mostly these rich Parisian restaurants. They're very difficult to make. And, I just had fun with these dinners. And so, I created some of the recipes from the book. There are actually some recipes in the book itself.

Carol Cram

Yes, I saw that. That's awesome.

Crystal King

And I have a downloadable cookbook on my site, where people can recreate some of the dishes. And those are from food bloggers, historians, and chefs and me. 

Carol Cram

So, would you like to do a reading from In the Garden of Monsters? 

Crystal King

Sure. And I'm going to start actually at the beginning. 

Carol Cram

Good place. 

Crystal King

It's a good place to start and it doesn't spoil too much. That's the challenge with this book. I have found is that if I get into too many places, it's a little spoilery.

So, this is from the prologue and unlike some prologues, you should not skip this one. Don't skip it because it's important to give you a lot of contexts. 

It starts in Bomarzo, Italy in 1547. 1547 to 1560 is when the prologue takes place, but we're talking about 1547 here.

It took me years to find Giulia Farnese, but no time at all to win her confidence. I did so with an unassuming cherry rose tart. It had been nearly a hundred years since I last looked upon her face, but from the moment she pulled the golden tines of her fork away from her lips and she looked at me and not her husband, I knew my influence had taken hold.

“You truly are a maestro, Adonis,” she said, closing her eyes to savor the sweets, floral flavors, “And a welcome addition to our kitchen.”

“Madonna Farnese, you flatter me.” I gave the couple a polite bow, my gesture more fluid than human custom, and turned back to my earthly duties. 

“It seems you will eat well while I am gone”, Vicino joked behind my back. “But don't eat too well, my beauty, or you won't fit into those lovely dresses.”

Julia laughed, and my heart warmed. 

Oh, she would eat well, I vowed, very well. And so, I will just leave it there. 

Carol Cram

Oh good, good little teaser. Wow. And, you know, I love your main character, of course, is called Julia, and she has no memory of her past, right? So how does memory play a role, do you think, in this novel? 

Crystal King

So, I play with memory a lot. It's a big part of the plot. So, there's two Julias that you've heard about. You've heard about Giulia Farnese in 1547, but then also you meet Julia, a young American living in Rome with her roommate, Lillian. And she doesn't have a lot of history in her mind, and you learn this pretty early on she decides to take the Bomarzo job because she's a student at the Academia in Rome and she wants to learn from him.

She's obsessed with Surrealism; she's obsessed with the way that the Surrealists play with time and visual everything and just the idea of imagination is such a thing for Surrealists. And so, she is very attracted to this. So, she goes because she has this sense that going to paint with Dalí or model for Dalí will be really important for her because in a way that might help her figure out what is going on with her missing memory.

And I can't tell you too much, but the book is struggling with this idea of what kind of memory does she have? What memories do other characters potentially have? Are your memories really real? Can you connect to them in a true way or not. 

Carol Cram

And actually, one thing interesting too, if she wants to be an artist, she is an artist. And Dalí, in the book and in real life, had very little time for women artists. 

Crystal King

He put up with them. I mean, there's pictures of Lee Miller that she took of him and Gala, you know? So, he certainly appreciated some women as, you know, because they were in some circles together. I mean, he certainly probably knew Frida Kahlo and he knew some of the others. 

Carol Cram

Dorothea Tanning probably. I mean, there's lots of women Surrealists. 

Crystal King

Yeah. And poets at the time too. So, but he really did not believe that they should be artists. He believed that they were better as muses.

He loved women, but he didn't want to touch them. He just liked to look at them. He liked to watch;  one of my favorite quotes from Dalí is, or funniest, I think, is how he talks about sex. He said that he's only had sex twice. He only had sex twice. And one was with the poet, Federico Garcia Lorca, and one was with his wife, Gala. And Lorca was painful, and Gala was not disappointing, underwhelming. He just was not interested in the physical act of sex himself. A voyeur. He let Gala have as many.

Carol Cram

Yeah, she had lots of lovers. 

Crystal King

And into her old age when they would be okay, I'm going to get something more out of this than you will. So, he bought her a castle a little bit away from their house in Púbol, Spain, and he could only visit if she had given him a written invitation. This is when she's in her seventies and one of the lovers that she had was the young star of Broadway's Jesus Christ Superstar. He was in his twenties. And he made off with a bunch of Dalí’s paintings at the end of that relationship. So, yeah. Interesting. 

Carol Cram

He is such a character, you know, I mean, we're kind of glad that he was in the world. He certainly made a contribution.

So, one of my goals with The Art in Fiction Podcast is to inspire other authors. So, what's one thing that you've learned that you didn't know before you started?

Crystal King

Oh, gosh, so much. I really do think butt in the chair as often as you can makes a difference. My first novel took me five and a half years, and I mostly wrote it on weekends and me just kind of piddled my way through it. And I rewrote it many times, but it took me a long time to get that first draft done.

And, at some point I realized this is really what I'd love to do as a career. That is not an easy prospect. If anyone has been writing, they know that's difficult. And there's two things that need to happen or could, that should happen to make this occur. Either you're lucky or you're prolific.

And so, one of those two things, and I only have control over being prolific. And so, I decided the only way I was going to do that is if I wrote every day. And you know, people like Stephen King are you should write every day. You have to write every day. And I don't think you have to write every day.

And I don't always write every day, but I thought, okay, if I were going to write every day, what would that look like? And so, I chunked that out into 400 words a day. And if I do that every morning or I sit down, I either write or edit for an hour or 400 words. Whichever comes first. And, I find that what happens is the story starts to really live in your head and you start to think about the characters and the plot in a way that is so beneficial because you're ruminating on it all the time when you're not sitting in front of that computer.

And so that drastically changed not just how fast I could write, because if you do that every morning, that's a book a year. Four hundred words a day is a book a year. But I also wrote better books because you're just, you're in it. You're thinking it. You're believing it. 

So that would be my advice, if you can chunk it into the smallest amount that you can manage every day and try for that, because I think it just enhances your writing so much.

Carol Cram

No, and I totally believe that. And it's consistency. You're right. Living within the novel. I'm in the middle of writing a first draft right now, which is so much fun because I haven't actually done that for a long time. I've been working these other two that are finally done. But yeah, editing and writing are two different things.

It's really exhilarating, isn't it, when you're writing it for the first draft. 

Crystal King

When you're starting, that excitement, yeah. 

Carol Cram

I mean, you kind of know, I do know it's going to happen, but I'm not tired of the story yet. Yeah. I mean, you just don't know what they're going to do every day, but yeah, it's consistency. Do it every day. I wish I did it every day. I do it almost every day. 

Crystal King

Even  several times a week is better than, you know, just one day on the weekend.,

Carol Cram

So, what are you working on now, if you want to share that with us? 

Crystal King

I have a novel coming out next year, probably in the December time frame. This one has a lot of history in it. It's not historical and there's no food in this one, which is weird for me. Very weird. 

Carol Cram 

But is there art? 

Crystal King

There is some art, yes. And it's contemporary. It's set right before COVID and kind of as COVID's beginning. And it's a story about a woman who takes an unusual job in Rome and she's cataloging artistic and historical places and things for this mysterious benefactor. And, basically, the gist of the book is that it's a story about gods that are stealing happiness from the world. It's kind of a reverse Pandora's box. And so, we're still in the final edits for that. I know they're working on, figuring out who the cover designer is, and I don't have a title yet or I'd give that to you. 

Carol Cram

So, you're in the fantasy area still.

Crystal King

Yeah, I'm kind of playing with that and toying with that. It's something I've always really loved and living in Boston, which is a very literary city. It's very heavily literary. And when I started writing and doing work with the writing community here, writing fantasy was not cool. You don't write genre. It was not acceptable. It was not good writing. It was terrible. And I did not want to be seen like that. But I've always enjoyed stories that are strange and speculative and fantastical. And I read very widely, and I love history, clearly, or I wouldn't write in it, but I like the idea of playing with both of those; all my novels, I think, will always have an Italy component. That will be the one thread that runs through it. And I'll never really get away from the history. Even the book that I'm starting to noodle on now, which is set in Venice, and it's not historical, it has historical things in it. You can't get away from that in Italy. 

Carol Cram

You kind of have to, in Venice. 

Crystal King

Yeah. 

Carol Cram

But I think now we're kind of able to be a little bit more eclectic. It used to be, oh, we could never do genre, but I don't think that's the case anymore.  Your book is literary, but it's got a fantastical element. It's got a Gothic element. Mythology. It's awesome. And I've seen that more and more. 

Crystal King

Bookstores don't know where to put it on the shelves.

Carol Cram

That's their problem. But yeah, I know. 

Crystal King

But it's funny. I go into different bookstores. Where is my novel? And they're like, oh, it might be here. And then I'll find it in fantasy. It's very funny. 

Carol Cram

Because it doesn't really fit in fantasy. It has fantasy in it, but it's not fantasy. 

Crystal King

Yeah, exactly 

Carol Cram

As you know, the Historical Novel Society conference in June, because I'm on the board, is historical fiction in its many forms, because we recognize that there's so many different routes into historical fiction, like fantasy and thrillers and mysteries, romance. So, we're kind of looking at all of those genres together. 

Crystal King

Yeah, and I think it's also a really good way to get younger people interested in history, is there's that crossover, because I really didn't get as interested into history until I was probably in my 30s. As you mature, you start to look at the world a little bit differently. You start to become curious about things. How do things get this way? How do we not have things go this way again? Clearly people aren't reading enough history these days. Yeah. 

Carol Cram

Not everybody reads history, unfortunately. 

Crystal King

Yeah. So, I think it's a great way to sneak it in for people that think it might sound too stodgy and too boring, but it's not. 

Carol Cram

Oh, my goodness, no. History is awesome. 

Crystal King

So many stories. Yeah. 

Carol Cram

Well, thank you so much, Crystal, for chatting with me today. It's been just delightful. 

Crystal King

Thank you for having me. I always love chatting and talking and connecting to my readers. So, thanks for giving me that opportunity. 

Carol Cram

I've been speaking with Crystal King, author of In the Garden of Monsters, listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction at www.artinfiction. com. Be sure to check the show notes for a link to Crystal's website at www.crystalking.com, where you'll find pictures of Bomarzo, where the novel is set, and more information about Salvador Dalí. 

If you are enjoying The Art in Fiction Podcast, please help us keep the lights on by making a donation to the Ko Fi website. The link is in the show notes. Also, please follow Art In Fiction on Facebook and Instagram. And don't forget to give The Art In Fiction Podcast a positive review or rating wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for listening.