For the Love of Art & Art Thrillers with Author Alex Connor

Join me as I chat with novelist Alex Connor, author of several art thrillers listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction, including Rembrandt's Secret, The Caravaggio Conspiracy, and The Incubus Tapes.

View the video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Fbi3aA7gPl8

• Why Alexandra has chosen to center her novels, mostly art thrillers, around art.
• Seeing Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus in the National Gallery when she was six.
• What led Alexandra to "follow her bright light" and focus on her dual careers as a writer and a painter.
• How Alexandra decides which artists to base a novel aroundl she's written novels related to Caravaggio, Rembrandt, Klimt, Fuseli, Bosch, and many more.
• Story behind the story of Rembrandt's Secret  and how Alexandra likes to go behind the scenes to find interesting and often little known stories connected with an artist.
• Inspiration for The Incubus Tapes.
• The story behind Fuseli's famous painting The Nightmare and how it forms the basis of the dual-time narrative in The Incubus Tapes.
• Pacing when writing a thriler.
• Reading from The Incubus Tapes.
• Some of the challenges related to writing an art-based thriller.
• Why a writer should keep writing and not let other people dampen their passion.
• What Alexandra is working on now.

Press Play now & be sure to check out Alex Connor's novels on Art In Fiction: https://www.artinfiction.com/novels?q=alex+connor

Alex Connor's website: https://www.alexandra-connor.co.uk/

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Want to learn more about Carol Cram, the host of The Art In Fiction Podcast? She's the author of several award-winning novels, including The Towers of Tuscany and Love Among the Recipes. Find out more on her website.

Transcript

Carol Cram

Hello and welcome. I'm Carol Cram, host of The Art In Fiction Podcast. This episode features Alexandra Connor. Writing under the name Alex Connor, Alexandra has several novels listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction, including Rembrandt’s Secret, The Caravaggio Conspiracy, and The Incubus Tapes. 

Alexandra Connor is an author, artist, art historian, and television presenter. In 2017 she won the Rome Prize for Isle of the Dead, and her bestselling books are sold worldwide, and translated into many languages. Her trilogy about Caravaggio and Artemisia Gentileschi, Caravaggio Saga, was a #1 world bestseller on Amazon. She is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts and listed in Debrett’s Prominent People of Today. Alexandra lives in Brighton, England.

Welcome to The Art In Fiction Podcast, Alexandra.

Alexandra Connor

Hello, lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me. 

Carol Cram

Oh, it's my pleasure. So, you are the author of numerous novels, but it's your art thrillers and art historical novels that are included on Art In Fiction. We have nine of them listed, and I think there's even more. 

Tell us why you decided to center your novels around art.

Alexandra Connor

Oh, I can pinpoint that exactly. I was a very hyperactive child. I was a pain in the bum actually, let's be honest. And my parents took me out to the National Gallery one day because we lived in London, right? And of course it was all very, very boring and I really wasn't interested because at that point, all I wanted to do was to jump into the fountain in Trafalgar Square. Ridiculous. 

And then we walked into Room 28 and I saw Caravaggio’s Supper at Emmaus. I can feel it now. And I stood in front of this picture, and that started it. Who painted this? When? What? What? Who was he? Who was he? I was absolutely riveted. I had to know about this picture, this man. All I know is that I had this incredible. visceral tie towards this man, which is probably why I ended up writing four books about him. 

Carol Cram

Oh, it's four books about Caravaggio, is it? Wow!

Alex Connor

And I'm going to be doing another one as well. And that was what did it. It was suddenly this jolt, and it was there, but I had no facility to write or paint. I was doing a variety of totally different things. I was living in London. It was great, married and all the rest of it. And I was modeling.

And then, I was stalked. And I was very badly attacked and beaten up. And it left me with a growth in my throat which had to be removed. And the funny thing is that banging my head on the Kensington pavement must have released something because all of a sudden after that, I could paint, and I could write.

Now, I'm not recommending anybody goes out and tries this, but that's how it was for me. And I had suddenly something to completely focus my mind on because there was no way I was going to be a victim. That wasn't a role I was doing. But I had something to focus on. And if you're looking at the arts, it's not like training to be or a doctor or a dentist or anything like that, where there is up to a point, a cutoff point.

If you're looking at the arts, it goes on forever. 

Carol Cram

It does. 

Alex Connor

Because as long as you can write, you explore.

Carol Cram

Well, we never stop working. Actually, artists don't stop working. You don't retire from being an artist or a writer. My husband's an artist as well, so I know what that's like. 

Alexandra Connor

This is what always surprises me because, yes, I get it. You know, if you're a sprinter, yes there is a cutoff point. But if you're anything to do with the arts, you are compelled to do it. And I think very many writers in particular, because I don't know about you. I must find out this answer. Actually, I must ask you, I mean, don't you find that all the time, whatever you're doing, whether you're talking to people, whether you're out and about, whether you're shopping, cooking, whether you're doing whatever it will, you're cleaning the loo, it doesn't matter, but you're still getting ideas.

Carol Cram

Yes. I always find driving is a great time for ideas. You know, things will pop up as you're driving. As long as you're open. And I think that's the thing with authors. We just sort of open ourselves, like you did in the National Gallery. How old were you, by the way, when that happened, when you first saw your Caravaggio? 

Alexandra Connor

Six years old. I was a baby. I was a baby. And it took sort of a while for it to sort of percolate through because I was going off on all different tangents. And it was funny because even though, yes, it was a horrendous situation, all the rest of it, there was that odd perception of having come home. I knew what I was supposed to be doing. 

And I think for anybody who writes, as soon as you have that moment where you go, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, that's when you know what to do with your life.

Carol Cram

And many people don't get that moment. So that's very special.

Alexandra Connor

Or worse, they say, no, no, I can't, I mustn't, I must do something else. I must follow my parents, or I must follow my husband, blah, blah, blah. You know? You can't do that. Have you heard of the poet Louis MacNeice? Look him up. He's a remarkable poet. He's an Irish poet, and he was from the sort of the same stable as Auden and that lot, but he was a one-off.

And I remember again, funnily enough, talking about childhood, I was eleven and I was reading what he wrote, Prayer before Birth. You will know that poem. And he said at one point “and grant me a white light at the back of my mind to guide me.” And I think we are all looking for that white light. And when you're fortunate enough to find it, never let it out of your sight.

Carol Cram

That's a wonderful image. I love that. I'll have to look him up. 

Alexandra Connor

Oh, do, Louis MacNeice. 

Carol Cram

So, talking about artists, we are going to talk a little bit about your Fuseli novel in a little while. But I'm curious how you decide which artists you're going to base a novel around, like, you've had Caravaggio, Rembrandt, Klimt, Fuseli, Bosch. So how do you choose your artist? 

Alexandra Connor

Well, Rembrandt was very, very successful. Sorry, I'm laughing because this never fails to make me laugh. Yes. It was very nice and was very successful, which was lovely. People responded to it, but because I showed Rembrandt as Rembrandt truly was, which is what interests me.

That's the bit that interests me not to do a hatchet job, but to show them as they were, because I think it's interesting with Fuseli to show him actually that apart from the fact he was really rather sort of a cool Swiss gentleman, he was actually, when you read these erotic, you know, making love to this woman and everything, you think, Oh, go Fuseli it gives a whole different side to him. And that interested me. 

Now with Rembrandt - and I'm an admirer of his work - but I got so sick and tired of hearing about what a good guy he was, and how compassionate, and how he saw the soul of people and everything, because I'm an art historian, as you know.

Of course, I'd done an awful lot of research, and I knew the story behind Rembrandt, the one they don't really talk about very much. And he had a woman called Geertje Dircx, and she came to be a wet nurse to Titus, she came to be the boy's wet nurse. And she ended up in Rembrandt's bed, fair enough, she was his housekeeper.

But then a younger woman arrived a few years later, called Hendrickje Stoffels. And of course, she was turfed out of the bed. Now, Geertje, and this is really interesting because in those days, women had very little power. But in Holland, if a man gave a woman a ring, it was a promise. And if you were in breach of promise, if you reneged on that, it was serious.

You know, you ended up in court. So Geertje, she went for it. Good girl. And she took him to court. Do you know this story? 

Carol Cram

No. I don’t actually know this story. And I was just in Rembrandt's house not very long ago. 

Alexandra Connor

Ah, well, this will ruin it for you now. And she took him to court, and she said, no, no, he gave me a ring. He promised me. And I'm here on breach of promise. I'm only asking for my due. I was the wet nurse to Titus, and I love that child as my own. So, you know what Rembrandt did? He had money and he had clout. So, he went and he got a lot of people to bear witness against her, including her brother-in-law, to say she was a prostitute and a whore.

And he had her committed to an asylum in Gouda for 12 years. 

And that was the whole story of The Rembrandt Secret, were her letters that she wrote there. She didn't; it's just what I would imagine she would have written. And it was the story of that, but the funny thing was the bit that always makes me laugh is that it was people received it very well and I was invited to loads of different countries to talk about it.

Except for Holland. I'm persona non grata in Holland, but there you are. So, there's normally something that will trip it with Caravaggio. It's obvious why Caravaggio, you know, but with Titian, because Titian is, again, he's duplicitous, he's a marvellous genius, but you've also got this tricky, tricky stuff because you've got to look at who are these people running with. You know, Caravaggio had no apologists until sort of the last 30 years. Before that he was just this thug and everything.

He wasn't. When he arrived in Rome as a penniless kid, he was 18 years of age. He had hardly any clothes, he was poor as a rat, but you know what he was bringing with him, apart from paintbrushes, books. 

Carol Cram

 So, he was well educated. 

Alexandra Connor

So that again gives another side to a person.

Carol Cram

So, you're choosing artists where there is a different side that we might not know that you like to explore in your novels. 

Alexandra Connor

Yes. Or if they've got a really good story. You see with Fuseli, yes, I did like the idea of this chilly Swiss gentleman. Sorry, not saying that's not all the Swiss, but you know what I mean? They are contained. I like this idea. And then when you actually start looking at him he had a very close friend, Lavater, that he wrote to all his life, but the interesting thing was, they discovered that there was a politician in Zurich who was crooked. And they exposed him. And that is why Fuseli had to leave Switzerland.

And his friend with him, Lavater. And you think, well, good for you. You see, he stood up for what he believed. And then, of course, he painted The Nightmare. 

Carol Cram

Yes. So, let's talk about The Incubus Tapes. So, what was your inspiration for wanting to write a novel set around Fuseli? 

Alexandra Connor

That painting. I actually don't like it. I'll be honest with you. I do not like it. I copied it. I always copy them because I can then work more into, well for me… 

Carol Cram 

Well, that's fascinating. 

Alexandra Connor

Yeah, it does because I'm suddenly, right, okay, I can sort of breathe with them a little bit. It's like looking over their shoulder. So, I copied it, and then when I finished it, I went, this does not go out of the studio. I turned it face to the wall; I hated it. But it's actually on the cover. If you look at the cover, the actual body is what I painted. But that picture, it fascinated me for the incubus because I'm a great believer in we know nothing, we know this much. So, as somebody who is inherently curious about everything—what was that picture about?

And it was interesting because when it was done, it was done when it was first starting to look at psychiatry. Somebody had first started talking about the subconscious. It was all very, very new. So, this arrived, and it was like the zeitgeist. You know, this picture, I can understand why it would create such a furore because before that there had been this very sort of tame pastoral or landscapes. Fine, they were beautiful, but then suddenly this thing arrives, and people don't know what to make of it.

And because it's disturbing, and it's also very sexual.

So, there's this whole thing about, oh, it's outrageous. Let me have another look. You know, so you can imagine that people are intrigued. And I loved it when I was doing the research, because like yourself, the research is a huge part of what we do.

When I was doing the research, women were fainting. And I thought, yeah, I bet they were fainting with one eye closed. You know? Then they came back with a chaperone. Seriously, well, they were so scared. They had to come back with somebody. And I thought the chaperone was thinking, oh, let me get a closer look.

And men, of course, were looking at him going, oh, yes. Well, this is all to do with the brain. And people were starting to investigate the whole idea of this is where it really, really began, the whole concept of dreams and did they mean something. I mean, we're before Freud, but it's no coincidence that Freud had a picture in his room where he was actually talking to people and consulting. He had a copy of The Nightmare, you know, and I didn't realize, which is quite upsetting to realize, that so did Hitler. 

Carol Cram

Oh, I did not know that; that is upsetting.

Alexandra Connor

It really is. But then on the other hand, he also had a copy of The Isle of the Dead by Arnold Böcklin. So, he obviously, in that instance, he knew how to pick some good pictures. It was when it was just first starting, and people wanted to know more about these things because there'd been a sort of lapse in interest.

And then people started opening up their minds and going because it was past the age of reason, and everybody then started asking awkward questions. And then they looked at all the background and then of course they look back to the ancient Greeks and the Romans and you can see how it mushroomed.

So of course, this picture, it was just dovetailed. It was the perfect picture at the perfect time. 

Carol Cram

It was. Well, that was just the dawn of the Romantic era, wasn't it? 

Alexandra Connor

And you know, he really did come in there and then went potty and did all the sort of things to do with Shakespeare and which, personally, I don't care for.

But The Nightmare is a genius of a painting, because if you want to really paint something that you will not forget, whether you like it or not, that's the picture. 

Carol Cram

Well, it's incredibly compelling. Everybody knows that painting, and so a novel that is sort of around that painting is a very interesting idea.

So, can you just quickly summarize what the novel itself is about? I mean, obviously, The Nightmare is a big part of it, but the modern part of it. It's a dual- time, right? 

Alexandra Connor

It's a dual-time, and it starts in 1941. Yes. That was the Second World War. Men came back with shell shock, night terrors, what people call PTSD now.

So, a psychologist comes along, psychiatrist, I beg your pardon, called Addison Frankel, and he sets up a sleep clinic in a very, very quiet, remote area of Hampshire. So, no neighbours or anything. And he sets it up primarily to treat soldiers who had been drafted home who were suffering from shell shock, night terrors, and who basically were traumatised.

But he also filmed his patients, and the government got to hear about the films, and the films were so shocking and so distasteful that they were suppressed by the government and the authorities, and Addison Frankel disappeared in 1945. Everything was suppressed, everything to do with his work, and the place was razed to the ground. 

Carol Cram

So, is actually this true, Alexandra? Is that true? I know, this is your novel. Yeah, I was suddenly going, really, did that happen? 

Alexandra Connor

Convincing though, isn't it? 

Carol Cram

Yeah, you're very convincing. 

Alexandra Connor

Okay, good. So, then we jump to 2024 and a man is hired called Gus Egan, and he's hired to actually work as a researcher for a man called Louis Wiles who is an old writer who's literally, well, he's actually at the end of his days. We don't know that till he arrives, but his house where he lives is on the property where the clinic used to be. So, it was part of the clinic, but the clinic's gone now, but the house has remained. But the thing is that as soon as Gus Egan arrives to start working for Louis Wiles, who's writing this book about Fuseli, as soon as he arrives, he gets an anonymous message saying, have you heard about the infamous incubus tapes? 

There is a copy that still remains that are hidden there, and you have to find them. And it's the story of how it exacerbates on and on and on. He suddenly finds himself in real deep trouble trying to find these tapes, which of course the authorities want to suppress.

Nobody wants this to come out. Everybody's denying anything to do with Addison Frankel. You can't even find out he existed apart from just his name. And then they have to go and find out, well, who knows anything? And the only people who can still remember anything are people who are very old.

And it's kind of interesting because then you've got the very young and then you've got the elder people who are saying yes, but I remember. I remember that time. I remember that place. It did exist. So, I don't want to tell anymore. 

Carol Cram 

Oh no, no, that's enough. That's enough. But yeah, that just gives us a general gist of what the novel is about.

Yes, and it's very fast-paced. I've got to find out what these incubus tapes are. So that is the characteristic of your novels, isn't it? 

Alexandra Connor

Is it because I talk fast? I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't when I'm working. I spend a lot, like you must do, we spend a long, long time silent in front of a pad and paper or a computer or a canvas, there's a lot of time that is silent. So, when you talk, it's almost like, oh, the dam burst. 

Carol Cram

Oh boy. I know. I know. 

Alexandra Connor

But it's the same with the writing, isn't it? Yes. Or is that just me? If I'm reading something, if it's purporting to be fast-moving, then I want it to move.

You know, if it's at a more leisurely place, then that's great. But if somebody's saying to me, this is a fast-moving thriller, then move. Because with the thriller, I like to see it like I'm watching it. 

Carol Cram

Yeah, there is a very cinematic quality to your novels, I really found.

Alexandra Connor

Oh, thank you for that. Thank you for that. Because, I appreciate that people do want to know about where somebody's dress came from and it was damask and it was this and the flowers are planted, but I don't. I want to sort of, like, yes, yes, yes, but who killed who, when, and why. 

Carol Cram

Well, there's so many different ways of writing. That's why it's so much fun because there's constant variety, right?

Alexandra Connor

Exactly. If you're marketing it as a thriller, keep it fast. 

Carol Cram

Yes, it has to be fast. That's right. But I just love how you combine the thriller with the art because of course I love art and obviously you do as well. So, you’ve kind of got the historical, you've got the art with that genre.

So, it's a lot of fun, actually and I really enjoyed it. 

Alexandra Connor

Thank you. It does marry together. I mean, but I don't know, I have to ask you something though. Don't you find that you have to have the portrait of the person you're writing about in your head. You've got to see them, haven't you?

Carol Cram

I usually do have a picture in my head, or I actually go and find a picture of somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Not always, actually, not always, that's true, but sometimes, yeah. 

Alexandra Connor

I always do those, like, little, like, cartoons. 

Carol Cram

Do you actually draw your characters because you're an artist? I don't do that. I sometimes just go look on the internet, see if I can find a picture. 

Alexandra Connor

And do you ever do that thing where you're looking up faces? I do this with old paintings, and you suddenly come across one and you go, but I know him. And then you go, that's so ridiculous.

Oh, I'm so glad. I thought I was crazy. 

Carol Cram

I think you definitely can do that. 

Alexandra Connor

There were two pictures, and I would swear, it's illogical, but I would swear I knew those people. 

Carol Cram

Wow. Maybe you did in a former life. Who knows? 

Alexandra Connor

Now, isn't that interesting, you say? And that, immediately, we have an idea for a book.

Carol Cram

So, would you like to do a quick reading from The Incubus Tapes? 

Alexandra Connor

Absolutely. Right, now, I'm sorry it's a bit dark in here, but I'm not going to tell anyone. 

Carol Cram

Oh, no, it's perfect. Your background reminds me of your novel. It's great. 

Alexandra Connor

Oh, which one? The one with the statues in it? 

Carol Cram

Yes. It's got that sort of late-19th, 18th-century look about it. Your background. Yes. 

Alexandra Connor

I don't like modern. Yes. I mean, not in the kitchen. The kitchen. 

Carol Cram

You have to have a modern kitchen. 

Alexandra Connor

That's, that's essential, you know, and computers and phones, yes. I like it to look as if it was here before I came on the planet and will be here when I've left. 

Carol Cram: 

Anyway, let's have a reading from The Incubus Tapes. 

Alexandra Connor

Great. Okay. 

Chapter One. Royal Academy of Arts, The Strand, London, 1782.

Raising the lantern to shoulder height, the night watchman walked past the paintings slowly, studying each to ensure that nothing had been disturbed nor damaged. that no thief had managed to avoid the guards on front duty or the dogs at the back. The strand at night was pitted with opportunists as many drunks as theatre goers, as many wealthy asshats as vicious yobs.

For every member of a private gentleman's club, there was a slack jawed pimp or pickpocket. For every noblewoman in a carriage, there was a whore selling her wares against an alley wall. King George III might earn himself the soubriquet Farmer George for his love of the land, but his bouts of instability were rumoured to be worsening, England anxious, St Paul's holding services to beg God for the sovereign's deliverance.

Yawning and longing to end his shift, the watchman continued his progress. Still using the lantern to light his way, he moved from the ground floor up the grand staircase, steep and winding as a coil of hair, which led to the exhibition room above. At the top of the steps, he paused to allow his eyes to adjust to the darkness.

All lights inside the gallery had been extinguished, the candles snuffed out, the lanterns quenched, except for the great glass globes that flanked the funked entrance of the imposing stone façade. The illumination was limited, yet strong enough to travel through the upper windows and make its way over the wooden floor.

It slid across panels, crept over walls, and nuzzled against the gilded frames, finally coming to rest on the picture hanging on the far wall, the painting directly facing anyone who entered the gallery as it loomed out of the darkness. Startled, the night watchman stepped back, dropping the lantern. The light immediately extinguished.

He couldn't see clearly but had caught a glimpse of a dark shape scuttle across the floor. Instinctively, he reached for the nightstick in his belt, the metal billy cup weighty in his hand as he waited for another movement to indicate where the intruder was hiding. A burglar, the watchman thought. Some sneak thieves or a drunk looking to find a face, bent down.

But weren't there enough of his type in Piccadilly? Oi, he called. Whoever you are, come out. There was no response. Come on, I'll not take any of your mischief. Irritated, he moved forward, peering into the far-off darkened corners, his eyes scanning the gallery. An ex-pugilist, he wasn't afraid of anyone that he could stop with his fists or his baton, his boots sounding loud on the wooden floor as he struggled to relight the lantern.

Mumbling to himself, the watchman suddenly sensed another movement in the room, and an ominous feeling overcame him as he heard a soft shuffling. Unnerved, his gaze turned in the direction of the sound, but he could only make out a humped shadow, crouching, its attention seeming to be fixed on him. Who's there?

He asked, backing away. His progress stopped as he walked into the closed door. The same door by which he'd entered, the door he'd left open, the door someone else had closed. As this hand reached behind him, scrambling to turn the door handle, the watchman's gaze moved around the gallery. Whoever had broken in was not going to be scared off or intimidated.

Whatever was hiding had locked the door and trapped the watchman inside. With his free hand, he clutched the baton. If they attacked, he had something with which to defend himself. But there wasn't another sound, just a pulsing, ominous silence. The light from the outside lamps didn't reach the corners of the gallery.

They remained in darkness. As the guard's nervous gaze moved over to the painting that faced him, Fuseli's depiction of the nightmare. The painting that had transfixed London, the painting that had drawn crowds to gaze on the sleeping woman, and the malignant figure of the incubus crouched on her breast.

But he wasn't crouching there now. He'd moved. The watchman could see the blank space on the canvas, could hear the muted thud as something landed on the floor. The terrified guard's mouth opened but no sound came from it, his eyes widening as he stared at the transformed painting. It was only feet away from him.

As he turned to the door and began to drum on the wood, frantically calling for help, too afraid to turn and see what was behind him, the watchman continued to struggle with a handle, twisting it desperately as something moved across the floor towards him. Unnerved, sobbing with terror, the guard continued to beat his fists on the door, staggering and losing his balance as a heavy weight landed on his back.

As his legs gave way, he could smell the putrid breath, feel the saliva against his neck, and flinched as the coarse fur brushed against his cheek. Horrified, screaming for help, the watchman crawled forward inch by inch on his belly, the creature still clinging to his back, finally wrenching open the door and staggering towards the staircase.

It was only as he descended the first step that he felt the creature fall away from him, and then ran down the staircase without looking back, barely coherent, as he burst out of the building and into the London street beyond. When the watchman reported to his colleagues what he'd seen, they mocked him.

Then went to investigate. They found nothing amiss. Fuseli's painting of the nightmare was still in place, undamaged, intact. The incubus gazing out from the painting unchanged. In the dim light at first, no one noticed the imprint of feet at the base of the easel. 

Small feet, barely larger than a dog's. And by morning, they’d disappeared.

Carol Cram

I'm really glad you read that opening. That is great. Yeah. That really got me when I first read that. I thought, oh wow, that's wonderful. You know, I was just thinking as you were reading it again, some of those words really got, you know, scuttle and thud. You could really just, yeah, see this little thing.

Alexandra Connor

And it's the fur on the back of his head. And the saliva. When you write thrillers, if you're writing it and it makes you look behind yourself, you know it's scary. 

Carol Cram

That was wonderful. Thank you. I'm glad you read that one, because, that poor night watchman. 

Alexandra Connor

I know. He ended up in Bedlam too. 

Carol Cram

So, sort of a general question, what are some of the challenges of writing, like, an art-based thriller?

Alexandra Connor

Telling people something they don't know. Okay. Something unexpected. Something that I love is when people write to me. And they say, actually, I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm really not interested in art. But I went off and looked up all those pictures by Goya. Or when I was in Italy, I went to look at the Caravaggios and you think, ah, education by stealth.

Carol Cram

I was a teacher, so I totally get that. I love that, when people read a novel and then they go and look at the art or the music or whatever it is. 

Alexandra Connor

I had an army man who wrote to me, and he said, well, he said, you completely ruined Rembrandt for me. 

Carol Cram

But you also get to celebrate some awesome art and you bring it to people's attention. So that must be very gratifying. 

Alexandra Connor

Very, very much so. I mean, everybody knows The Nightmare. Yes. But they don't know all the story behind it. 

Carol Cram

No, they don’t. They might have seen it go by, but you've given a lot more depth to it. I learned a lot. 

Alexandra Connor

Oh, good. Oh, that's wonderful. That's excellent and I love the fact that Fuseli suddenly comes alive. That's the other thing is this suddenly comes back to life. Klimt was a different matter. It was very strange with Klimt actually, because doing research on Klimt, he's a hard nut for Klimt.

And it was interesting because I found myself writing about Klimt and the people who were involved with the Klimt story were hard nuts. You know? 

Somebody told me that they found it very shocking, and I was thinking, well, I didn't find that shocking, but there you go.

But it sort of married up with his personality. Do you know what I mean by that? It was suddenly, well, if I'd been writing about, for instance, if you'd been writing about Turner, yeah, we know Turner was brusque. I should write about him. We were born on the same day, like Shakespeare, but for some reason I've never got around to Turner yet.

I did a program on him, but I haven't written about him. But with Turner, although he was brusque and bad tempered, he was very touching, he lost all his teeth. And, in those days you couldn't get false teeth like people have now. They used to take teeth from the cadavers on the battlefield.

Yeah. And he actually wore these and then he didn't like the idea. So instead, he had a special set made out of wood, and then they made his gums sore, and I found that so touching. Oh, yeah. I don't know, somehow, there was various other things about him that were so sweet, and I thought, no, no, I can't do that kind of a tough book with Turner, I'd have to do something more lyrical.

Carol Cram

Yeah, so I can understand that. Yes. 

Alexandra Connor

Yes. You know, Goya could handle himself. Actually, that's one of my favorites. I love the Fuseli one, but the Goya one, oh wow, that was, oh, that's such a guy after Caravaggio, because he really, he was sort of like, oh, like, hell, I'm doing what I want.

And this is the other thing about writers, anybody who's thinking about writing, and they're starting their career. Can I, sorry, can I just chime in about something that really matters to me here? 

Carol Cram

Absolutely. 

Alexandra Connor

Okay, because this really does matter to me. When I started, I had a lot of people telling me I couldn't do it.

I had one woman saying to me, well, stick to the painting. You know, I've got printer's ink running through my veins. You'll never make a writer. You'll never make a writer. I remember walking out on Goldhawk Road and thinking, yeah, well, the lady doth protest too much. You know? It was somebody just trying to stop me.

And I remember thinking, yeah, what the hell with you? I'll prove my point. And then I remember somebody, an agent, who wasn't working for me properly. I don't think she liked me. That's always difficult. And she really was not trying and I knew she wasn't trying because one day I said something to her and I said, well, come on with the money and she said, well, she said if you're that desperate, sell your house.

Carol Cram

What? 

Alexandra Connor 

And I looked at this woman and I went, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were an estate agent. I thought you were a literary agent. 

Carol Cram

Good for you. 

Alexandra Connor

And I thought, right. So, I fired her, right? Found another agent and I was off again. Now this is interesting. I wanted to write my own thrillers. And thankfully, they've done well. But when I wrote the first one, I found a letter I'd written with the outline in it, screwed up and thrown away. And when I challenged, this is another agent funnily enough, and when I challenged them about it, I remember she looked at me and she said, Nobody's interested in dead painters. 

Carol Cram

Oh, really? 

Alexandra Connor

And this is why, the reason I'm saying all this, is because anybody starting out now, if you found that white light at the back of your mind, if you know you are meant to be a writer, do not listen. Follow the damn light, follow yourself, follow it and follow the passion and the hell with what anybody else says.

Use it every time somebody knocks you down. Every single time you say, thanks. You did me a favor, because now I'm even more determined, and that way you'll succeed. Sorry, it matters so much to me. 

Carol Cram

Well, and I'm so glad you said that, because you just answered my question.

Because my next question was what’s one thing you've learned writing your novels that you didn't know before? And basically, you're telling me don't listen to anybody, go for it. You've got to be true to yourself, right? True to yourself. Because so many people will tell you, oh, that's not a good idea.

But if you care about it, then it's a good idea. 

Alexandra Connor

That's another thing. And I don't know if you'll agree with me on this, Carol. Don't tell people your ideas. It gets lonely. Okay, maybe tell your partner or your family.

Carol Cram

Yes, that's a good point. 

Alexandra Connor

There's a lot of very nice people out there and there's some people who are very jealous and they see a dream and a hope and to them it's irresistible. It's like a bubble they've got to pop. 

Carol Cram

Don't give them the opportunity. 

Alexandra Connor

No, no, I get so fervent about this because I don't want youngsters starting out to stop because somebody put a spoke in their wheel. 

Carol Cram

We need to build each other up because we're not competitors as authors. I mean, nobody reads just one book, right? So, we want to support each other and celebrate each other.

Alexandra Connor

This is exactly why this is so good. And you do different kinds of fiction. I know you do them with a kind of a symbiotic, they are connected, but you have all different styles. 

Carol Cram

Well, basically, I just do what I like to read. The only thing that is a constant is art, or the arts, it's not just visual arts, but art in fiction, because all of my novels are based around the arts. Otherwise, thrillers, literary, historical, whatever I want, really. That's my podcast. 

Alexandra Connor

That's wonderful, because it's not sort of saying, well, okay, it's got to be done this way. You're giving people a choice. You know? 

Carol Cram

Well, that's why I enjoyed your novel, it's a thriller. It's also got some historical things to it as well, but it's a very different take on, say, someone who wrote more of a biographical one or more sort of super literary or whatever.

There's so many different ways of going about it. And that's why there's dozens of novels about Rembrandt because there's so many, or whoever, because there's a lot of ways in. 

Alexandra Connor

Ah, and you know, art is so expansive. It's available to everybody. And what amuses me, I did a copy of the David and Goliath. It’s actually my logo. Because I copied it, David, with the head of Goliath. See, that's the one big advantage. I don't have to worry about copyright. I copy the stuff and then I can use it. 

Carol Cram

Well, that's a good point. So those paintings are yours, your versions of them, on your covers. 

Alexandra Connor

Exactly. Because that way I can use them. Because otherwise, you can't, you have to pay vast amounts.

Carol Cram

So, one last question. Can you tell us what you're working on now? What's next? 

Alexandra Connor

I can indeed tell you what I'm working on now. Well, I'm working on two. I'm working on Artemisia Gentileschi. 

Carol Cram

Love her. 

Alexandra Connor

I'm about to stun you now. You ready to be stunned? Okay. Comes out in two weeks time. 

Carol Cram

Oh, wow. Wow, you are so prolific. You just brought one out. 

Alexandra Connor

I can't help it. And somebody was so chippy with me the other day and said, oh, you're just churning them out. How do you do that? And I said, that's a really, really good question. I said, you could do it too. I said, perhaps if you work twice as hard. Yes, maybe it's good small hard work. 

Carol Cram

So, what's that one called?

Alexandra Connor

You're going to love this. A Vine Under Glass. 

Carol Cram

Oh, interesting. Because you've written a novel about Artemisia, so this is another one.

Alexandra Connor

And then follows Rodin. 

Carol Cram

Oh, Rodin. Boy, you got two of my faves. You've been to the Rodin Museum in Paris, of course.

Alexandra Connor

Yes. And I've also written a book, which is not coming out for another, this is a long way away. This is 18 months away, about Gericault. 

Carol Cram

Oh, you're getting all of them. That's fantastic. 

Alexandra Connor

I'm going to educate the world. I'm going to make people look at pictures. I'm going to make them. I'm going to force them. Tell a story and people will listen. It's like, tell a joke and people will remember something. Stop being so po-faced about it. You know, if you get people involved, they'll be interested. 

Carol Cram

Absolutely. 

Alexandra Connor

So, there you go. 

Carol Cram

That's so inspiring. 

Alexandra Connor

Oh, thank you. I believe and I care, like you do. And we need more people who care.

Carol Cram

I think so. 

Alexandra Connor

And who don't mind standing up and getting laughed at a couple of times because they sort of go, I don't care, I'm passionate about it. That's your problem if you don't like it. 

Carol Cram

Well, art it is important. I mean, art gives us meaning in life. We can't do without it. 

Alexandra Connor
It's a strange thing you say that because somebody asked me not so long ago, a journalist, and said, well, you're a writer and a painter. Well, if you had to choose which one you had to lose, which would it be? And I said, well, that's a bit like saying to a man, well, I'm going to break one of your legs, which one?

Carol Cram

Yeah, or which child. Somebody who asked that doesn't do creative stuff, because they're intertwined. 

Alexandra Connor

Exactly. Of course. Yeah. You know, because what we see we write, what we write we see. 

Carol Cram

You can't separate them. 

Alexandra Connor

You can't. You can't. 

Carol Cram

Thanks so much for chatting with me today, Alexandra. We've had such a great conversation.

I've been speaking with Alexandra Connor, author of The Incubus Tapes and several other art thrillers, all listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction at www.artinfiction.com. Be sure to check the show notes for a link to Alexandra's website at www.alexandraconnor.co.uk.

You'll also find a link to a 20-percent discount on a subscription to ProWritingAid, a fantastic editing tool for writers. If you are enjoying The Art In Fiction Podcast, please help us keep the lights on by making a donation to the Ko Fi website. The link is in the show notes. 

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