Art In Fiction
Art In Fiction
Hollywood Royalty - The Story of Hattie McDaniel in ReShonda Tate's The Queen of Sugar Hill
Listen in as I chat with ReShonda Tate, the best-selling author of dozens of novels including The Queen of Sugar Hill, ReShonda's first historical novel. It's listed in the Film category on Art In Fiction.
View the Video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/aIofW073t_U
Highlights include:
- Why write a novel about Hattie McDaniel, famous for playing Mammy in Gone with the Wind and being the first Black person to win an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress in 1939.
- Hattie's famous line about how she'd rather play a maid than be a maid.
- The novel as a story about a career woman before her time.
- Hattie's troubled love life.
- Hattie's relationship with Clark Gable.
- Researching The Queen of Sugar Hill
- Fact vs. fiction - an example of a fictionalized event in The Queen of Sugar Hill
- Hattie's activism during and after the war and her successful challenge of the restrictive covenant that kept the Sugar Hill neighborhood for "whites only" that led to a landmark Supreme Court case.
- Theme of The Queen of Sugar Hill
- Reading from The Queen of Sugar Hill
- ReShonda's focus on writing historical fiction
- What ReShonda is working on now
Press Play now & be sure to check out The Queen of Sugar Hill on Art In Fiction: https://www.artinfiction.com/novels?q=reshonda+tate
ReShonda Tate's Website: https://www.reshondatate.com
Music Credit
Paganology, performed by The Paul Plimley Trio; composed by Gregg Simpson
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Carol Cram
Hello and welcome. I’m Carol Cram, host of The Art In Fiction podcast. This episode features ReShonda Tate, the national bestselling author of more than 50 books, including The Queen of Sugar Hill listed in the Film category on Art In Fiction.
A highly sought-after motivational speaker and award-winning poet, ReShonda is the recipient of the NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Literature for her book Say Amen, Again. She has received dozens of distinguished awards and honors for her journalism, fiction, and poetry writing skills, including an induction into the Arkansas Black Hall of Fame and a Texas Top Author honor. Considered one of the top African American authors in the United States, her books remain a staple on Bestsellers lists and have been featured in USA TODAY, The Washington Post, Jet, People, Essence, and Ebony magazines.
Carol Cram
Welcome to The Art In Fiction Podcast, ReShonda.
ReShonda Tate
Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure.
Carol Cram
Well, it's certainly all my pleasure to be able to talk to you about The Queen of Sugar Hill, which I so enjoyed. Most people have heard about Hattie McDaniel because of her role in Gone with the Wind, and of course her Oscar win. But why did you decide you wanted to write a novel about Hattie?
ReShonda Tate
My grandmother loved Gone with the Wind. It was one of her favorite movies. And I remember one time watching it with her and I was so disgusted by the movie, and she wanted to know why. And I told her I didn't like Hattie McDaniel and she explained to me that, I'm looking at Hattie McDaniel and I'm disgusted by her being a maid. And she said, but she's playing a maid and I am a maid. So why are you looking at her with such disdain? And I didn't have an answer for it.
And then she said, well, besides, this 1939, what did you expect her to play? Scarlett O'Hara?
And it was that point that I started to say, you know, I'm looking at her through a different lens. And over the years, I just really came to see that we look at Hattie McDaniel and the movie Gone with the Wind through our 21st century eyes. And I took off my 21st century lens and I was able to have a whole new respect for Hattie.
Carol Cram
Yes, because for the time she was incredibly groundbreaking. And yet she got so much flack from both sides.
ReShonda Tate
Yes, the white people didn't like her because they felt like Mammy was too sassy. Black people didn't like her because they felt like it was a demeaning stereotype. And she just wanted to act. So, she found herself in the middle of both of these worlds and not being welcomed in either.
Carol Cram
Yes, because really, it's a novel about a woman who wanted to have a career. And she just wanted to be able to do her thing. She needed to make a living, too.
ReShonda Tate
And that's what where her one of her famous quotes came from. “I'd rather play a maid for 700 dollars than be a maid for 7 dollars.” And there are so many people that spoke out against her, and she kept saying, what would you have me to do? These are the only roles they're allowing me to play. What would you have me to do?
Carol Cram
Exactly. I mean, she had to make a living. And she wanted to entertain. She was an entertainer. She was incredibly talented. So, you chose to write it from her point of view in first person. How did you go about doing that?
ReShonda Tate
I wanted to get inside her head. I wanted the reader to be able to understand her emotions, and her emotions were all over the place. Like most of us, especially when you're trying to do a job, you just want to do the job. So, she had some good days. She had some bad days. And I really thought by doing this first person that I could get inside her head and make the reader see that.
Carol Cram
Yes. And you really did. And also, I listened to the audio book version of the novel and the woman who played her, who read the novel from Hattie's point of view, was just fantastic. You had a hand in choosing her?
ReShonda Tate
I did. They sent me a list of several actors to choose from for the narrator. And I was able to choose Lynette and that was my first choice and that's who we were able to get. And I felt like she embodied Hattie. She was phenomenal.
Carol Cram
She really did. I really felt like I kind of knew Hattie by the end of the novel.
I was thinking about her personal life. She was very unlucky in love, wasn't she? Why do you think that was?
ReShonda Tate
You know, she was very unlucky in love. And I think one of the things is because she really was always trying to find love. And part of it is she wasn't a conventional woman. Remember, this is the forties and fifties, and she was a little headstrong and so the men were wanting wives and she wanted a career. She wanted to enjoy her life. And so, she butted heads a lot, but she did want that happiness. She just had a hard time finding it.
Carol Cram
Well, which makes the novel really timely. I mean, I think women can really relate to Hattie even now, you know, that tension between wanting a career and also wanting a family, you know, we’re still dealing with that even now, right? In our 21st century, you know, we're so modern, but we totally could relate to Hattie, I found.
ReShonda Tate
And we are being forced to choose so often and that's what they kept having Hattie like, well, you need to choose.
Carol Cram
Yeah, and why does she need to choose? The men don't need to choose.
ReShonda Tate
Right, exactly.
Carol Cram
That doesn't really change, yeah. It is changing.
Clark Gable had a big role to play in the novel. Their friendship was real, wasn't it?
ReShonda Tate
It was. They met on the set of China Seas, and I think because both of them had this great sense of humor - they loved practical jokes - they just bonded and they really were good friends. In fact, he oftentimes put his name on the line for her.
For example, they didn't invite her to the Atlanta premiere. She wasn't welcome there. So, he was like, well, I'm not going. And it took Hattie trying to convince him to say, look, you're the king of Hollywood. You're the star of the show. You’ve got to go. But he was ready to, if his friend wasn't invited, he wasn't going.
Carol Cram
Yeah, he was an interesting man. I knew so little about him as a person. He was fascinating. What are some of the challenges you faced writing about a real person, but fictionalizing it?
ReShonda Tate
Yeah, one of the things was just getting the information because even though it's fiction for me, the foundation was accurate. The foundation is where I'd stick to the facts. The fiction comes in, filling in the blanks. And one of the hard parts was that foundation, because I discovered so many things on the internet were wrong. And so, it was an issue of getting beyond the internet. I had to do a lot of research at research libraries, census records. I used a lot of newspapers. And so that was a challenge because, you know, I could have just made it up, but I really wanted to stay as true to her story as possible.
Carol Cram
But there were times when you would have had to invent things. Do you want to talk to maybe an example of when you had to do that?
ReShonda Tate
Yeah, one of the prime examples is on the night of the Academy Awards. Clark Gable did not attend that that Academy Awards and it was because he had found out that he didn't win. So, he decided not to go at the last minute. but I put him there because I only have a certain number of pages and I wanted the friendship to be a big part of this story.
And I explained this in the historical note, but I put him at the Academy Awards so that I can set up their friendship. And I explained that that is where I took a creative liberty on how I feel it would have gone had he been there.
Carol Cram
Yes. So yeah, I think that's the point that how it would have gone if it's the kind of thing, like, the novelist has to think about. Well, what if, knowing what you know in reality, how do you go to the ‘what if’ - that's the challenge, isn't it? So, the novel is called The Queen of Sugar Hill. What was Sugar Hill?
ReShonda Tate
Sugar Hill was the neighborhood. It was originally called West Adams District. And it is some place that Hattie had dreamed of living since she set foot in in Los Angeles. And she moved in and bought her home. These are mansions and the neighborhood was called Sugar Hill at that time. They changed it to Sugar Hill, and she was so excited. She paid 10, 000 above asking costs, but her neighbors were not as happy, and they sued to get Hattie and the other Black residents out because there was a law called restrictive covenants that said you can't sell your home to anyone unless they're of European descent.
The case went to court and Hattie led the fight and they surprisingly won and that is unheard of during that time. And then that case ended up being the catalyst for the Supreme Court case, which tossed out restrictive covenant. People don't realize that Black and Brown people can live where they want to live thanks to the efforts of Hattie McDaniel.
Carol Cram
Yeah, because that was something that was brought out in the novel so much, is her activism. And just how much good she did in so many ways, that she entertained the troops during the war, and she did a lot, didn't she? She did a lot of charity work.
ReShonda Tate
She did. She was very active in the war, and supporting the veterans, even when people didn't feel like she should support it. Because there were some issues with victory at home. The people were saying we have issues at home. Why are we supporting this war? But Hattie said, well, but we have Americans fighting in this war. We have Black Americans fighting in this war and we need to make them feel supported. So that was a big thing for her.
Carol Cram
She really was a pragmatist, wasn't she?
ReShonda Tate
She was.
Carol Cram
Yeah, which is another thing that was so appealing about her. She just got on with things, you know. So, what would you say the theme of the Queen of Sugar Hill is?
ReShonda Tate
It really is about getting up when life knocks you down, because if you look at the totality of everything that she went through, it really does seem like she had such a tragic life and she had tragedy in her life.
But she will be the first to tell you she didn't have a tragic life. And so, it's about when those things happen to you, even if they knock you down, it's about always getting back up. And then it's friendship and looking at her in a different light. And that's really the goal of the book is to have the reader look at Hattie McDaniel, and as she used to always say, understand that she is more than Mammy.
Carol Cram
Yes, exactly. It's a wonderful, rounded character that, I mean, okay, she's real, but you created her as a character by fictionalizing her. Yeah, we can really relate to her, and I think that theme of perseverance is very much what that novel's about, which is why it's so timely.
So, we discussed you doing a short reading from The Queen of Sugar Hill.
ReShonda Tate
Okay. So, this is a scene from the NAACP, which waged an all-out war against Hattie. And one of the things was they were very well-meaning, but they wanted better representation of Black people in the movies, but they did it at the expense of actors like Hattie McDaniel.
This is a scene from the 1942 National NAACP Convention where the NAACP executive secretary is about to speak before thousands of people, and he has taken the stage.
“Well, as many of, you know, I have worked tirelessly to urge filmmakers to make a complete break from the tradition of showing Negroes as menial characters who were nothing more than grinning Uncle Tom's. Well, we are sending a direct message to colored Hollywood veterans regarding their responsibilities and the struggle.”
I began shifting uneasily in my seat as all feelings of euphoria dissipated. I knew this was veering into a lane to attack actors like me. And in that moment, I silently curse my husband for insisting that I come.
Mr. White continued. “We are asking Negro actors to play their roles with sincerity and dignity instead of mugging and playing the clown before the camera.”
I wasn't the only one who thought Walter White was talking about me. I could feel the hot glare of attendees as he spoke.
“Many of you have been reading the news about my discussions with the studio heads about our portrayal in cinema, he continued. “I've been negotiating directly with the studios to change the roles available to colored actors in Hollywood. I am happy to report that my nearly three years of meetings have been successful. And I anticipate that in the near future, colored cinematic characters will receive significantly more. And to show you that these producers are listening to our concerns, I have some wonderful news to share with you. I would like to invite an amazing actress to the stage.”
Walter White motioned toward where I was sitting on the front row. Oh, my, I definitely hadn't expected him to acknowledge me. I guess that's why I've been extended a personal invitation. I moved my pearl bag to the side, preparing to stand, though I was thoroughly confused because of our contentious history. But before I got out of my seat, a young actress I had met earlier, who was seated three seats down from me, stood.
“Please help me welcome Hollywood newcomer, Lena Horne,” Mr. White said, leading the audience in applause.
My face was flushed with embarrassment as I sank back into my seat. Lena hugged Mr. White once she was on stage. He stepped from behind the podium, took her hand, lifted it. And twirled her around like they were in the middle of a ballroom dance.
“Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you the perfect image of the new cinematic Negro.”
His voice, the acoustics in the room, seeming to amplify every syllable.
“She's articulate, sophisticated, thin, light skinned and extraordinarily beautiful.”
The room erupted in ovation again, and I felt physically ill.
“Miss Horn got her start at Harlem's Cotton Club, and she is well known among the Negro leadership elite in Manhattan.”
I couldn't believe the way he was prancing her around, or the way the crowd seemed to be eating it all up. His arm wrapped around her waist as he pulled her to him.
“I urged her to come to Hollywood. She has no history in the movies and therefore has not been typecast as anything so far,” Mr. White continued. “That makes her the perfect person to establish a different kind of image for Negro women. It is time that we get rid of the grinning, darky stereotype, the swiveled-eyed cretins who shuffle, jig, and drop consonants throughout the films that reach not only America, but the whole world, white and colored. In America,” he paused and glared down at me in the front row, “Hattie McDaniel's Mammy is no more.”
Carol Cram
Wow. I love that scene. It was very shocking. Actually, because it's true, isn't it?
ReShonda Tate
It is true. That entire scene is true. And it was absolutely humiliating because before they got to the speech, she had been hobnobbing with all of these big wigs that are there. She called it the who's who of colored Hollywood and then she was absolutely humiliated.
Carol Cram
Oh, it was a terrible, terrible thing that he said. And it was all about appearance, too. Yes. I mean, you know, what Lena Horne looked like. Yes. Yeah, I know. Um, nothing against Lena Horne, but, you know, still.
ReShonda Tate
And Lena didn't like being used like that because she admired Hattie. She was devastated to have been used in that manner.
Carol Cram
Oh, she must have felt terrible. I know you really brought that out. So, I was looking at your career. My goodness. I'm in awe. You've written over 50 novels. How many are historical fiction or is this kind of a new departure for you?
ReShonda Tate
This is my first historical fiction And yeah, I love this genre. I am here. I'm a journalist by trade. So, I am able to be in both of these worlds. My journalism side is the side that lays the foundations with the fact and then my novelist side is the creative side that comes in and fills in the blanks. I love it. And so, this is where I'll be now.
Carol Cram
I know. I just can't imagine how you have time to write all those novels and be a journalist.
ReShonda Tate
Yeah, and so that was one of the things, you can't do that with historical fiction. I quickly learned that. I have so many because I used to write for teenagers. So, you know, the teen books come a lot faster. So, I wrote for teens as well as adults. But yeah, with historical fiction that it takes so much time. And it's so, to be so meticulous that, yeah, you can't turn out books like that.
Carol Cram
No, you can't. I keep wishing I could. I've written four so far that are published, not the ones that are all, you know, written. It does take a long time. So, you're going to stick with historical fiction now then.
ReShonda Tate
I am. My next book is actually on Hazel Scott, And she was the first Black jazz player, a jazz singer, to have her own TV show. She was actually one of the biggest jazz singers of her time, Black or white, a millionaire. She was the wife of Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. And she was all but erased from history because she fought for civil rights. They deemed her a communist and it just ruined her life. And so, I was stunned at all that. I learned about her, and she was, like, I said, she was erased from history. So, I'm telling her story.
Carol Cram
And is that in the 1950s? Is that when she was active?
ReShonda Tate
So, it was the 1940s and 50s.
Carol Cram
And she was a singer.
ReShonda Tate
Yes. Bigger than Billie Holiday, bigger than Sarah Vaughn, but we didn't know about her.
Carol Cram
Well, that's going to be interesting. So where are you with that novel? When's that coming?
ReShonda Tate
I'm actually knee deep in writing it.
Carol Cram
Oh, fantastic. Oh, good for you. Wow. Yeah. And it doesn't get easier, does it?
ReShonda Tate
No, not at all. And in fact, you know, so before when I was doing this book, I did, I really like it. I concentrated so much on making sure I get the historical right that I didn't do what I do best. And that was storytelling in my first draft. So, I had to go back several times.
And so I'm not going to overthink it this go-around, but you hope that each book you get better. And I'm really enjoying writing this.
Carol Cram
Do you start with the research or start with the story or kind of do them both together?
ReShonda Tate
I start with the research and knowing that along the way, I'm going to continue, but I want to know her inside and out when I begin writing about her, because to me, that's how the character comes alive on the page.
Carol Cram
Is there lots of information about Hazel Scott?
ReShonda Tate
There is quite a bit of information and so again, the personal side, so that it doesn't feel like a biography. I go to the letters that she wrote. I'm going to New York at the end of the month to try and read those letters that are in a library there because that gives you insight more into her personally.
Carol Cram
Exactly. Yeah. Letters are such a boon. My current novel is set in the 14th century, so there's not a lot of letters there. Wouldn't that be cool if I could find some?
So, one of my goals with The Art In Fiction Podcast is to inspire other authors. So, what's one thing you learned from writing your first historical novel that you didn't know before?
ReShonda Tate
Well, one is you don't want to do a cradle-to-grave story, you know, and there will be some people that are upset because they're like, well, I wanted to know about her life beforehand. But it's really about picking the part is, when you're doing a biographical historical fiction, picking the part of their life that you think will interest the reader the most. And that interests you as a writer.
And then the other thing is really don't forget the storytelling, you know, even if it's your, whatever you're writing, if it's just a historical timeframe, don't forget the storytelling. And I think a lot of times you see writers that are just like, well, let me regurgitate this information.
And the true test of a great story that pulls someone in is when you're telling a complete story.
Carol Cram
Yes, because that's really what people want, you know, they like to have the history around it, but not too much. It's a real fine balance, isn't it? Yes, you don't have too much, but you have to have some and how to build that world.
Yeah, I know it's a challenge. Well, thank you so much, ReShonda for speaking with me today.
ReShonda Tate
Thank you so much for having me and I enjoyed the conversation.
Carol Cram
I've been speaking with ReShonda Tate, author of The Queen of Sugar Hill listed in the Film category at www.ArtInFiction.com. Be sure to check the show notes for a link to ReShonda’s website at www.reshondatate.com. You'll also find a link to a 20% discount on a subscription to Pro Writing Aid, a fantastic editing tool for writers.
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