Carol Cram
Hello and welcome. I’m Carol Cram, host of The Art In Fiction podcast. This episode features Zoe Disigny, author of The Art of Traveling Strangers, listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction at www.artinfiction.com.
Zoe Disigny worked as a college art history professor for twenty-five years, and in the summers taught art history courses and led tours in Greece, Italy, and France. For three of those summers, she established a business in Paris, offering art tours for American travelers. Zoe lives in Southern California with her husband and devotes her time to writing while continuing to travel internationally. The Art of Traveling Strangers is her debut novel.
Welcome to The Art In Fiction Podcast, Zoe.
Zoe Disigny
Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.
Carol Cram
Well, I'm excited to talk to you. We share so many common interests, but particularly a love of travel, especially European travel, and of art. So, you've combined both these passions into The Art of Traveling Strangers. Tell us about your inspiration for the novel.
Zoe Disigny
Thank you. I would love to. I've got a short answer and a long answer. I'll start with the short one. First of all, the inspiration for the story itself, where that came from. I used to be a tour guide in Europe in the summers and I had some interesting experiences, but I had one tour that I did that was unique.
And it was a story that I always told people, because I thought it was so entertaining. So, that is the inspiration for the core, the sort of seed of the novel. The inspiration for writing a novel is a whole other thing. It's not something I ever thought about. But I always wrote. When I was in college, I used to write silly, rhyming - it's not really poetry, just rhyming things. In the 1950s, I would have been a perfect person to do those jingles, you know, See the USA in your Chevrolet. I mean, really silly.
So then when I had my daughter, I decided I was going to write children's fiction, but it was always going to have a lesson. I was going to teach those kids, and of course it was going to be in rhyme, really silly rhymes. Well, that went nowhere. And then when I was a college professor, I didn't particularly care for my art appreciation textbooks. There are so many ways to teach that subject. So, I thought, well, perfect, I'll write a companion textbook, so I started doing that. And I was told pretty quickly that since nobody knew who I was, nobody would be at all interested in what I had to say about art appreciation.
So, okay, end of writing career, nothing else going to happen. So, 2013, I'm at lunch with a girlfriend and I tell her, of course, my story—I think it's the only story I have—about this tour guiding experience. And at the end, she said, you should write that. And I thought, I should write that. And I thought this is perfect. I was retired recently. But you know, once a teacher, always a teacher. And I still had that desire to keep teaching, not in the classroom anymore, but just keep teaching.
So, I thought my tour guiding story would be a great way to teach art history. And then also a nice way to sort of insert some life lessons, especially for women. So, yeah, that's where it came from.
Carol Cram
Of course, you've been an art history professor. I was a teacher as well, another thing that we have in common. Both of our husbands are artists as well, is that not true? So, your background as an art history professor would have been incredibly helpful for you when you were writing this novel. How did it help you?
Zoe Disigny
Well, in terms of all the research that goes into the story, or all the facts and that kind of stuff, a lot of that is part of what you just acquire over 30 years of teaching. I taught mostly the same thing over and over and it was survey of art history, and it was almost exclusively European art history in those days. So, you got really familiar with the basic stories.
As I was writing, and I wanted to bring in a certain element into the actual plot of the story, I could think of an artwork that would be in the area where we were traveling, and I could then say, okay, so we're going to go to that artwork next, because with that artwork, I can get Viv to say something that's going to help move the story along, or I can say something about the artwork that'll help move the story along.
So that was helpful. Once I got there, I had to make sure I had my facts right, so I did do research on top of that, but it wasn't anything deep and detailed. It's not like I was writing a scholarly dissertation. It's mostly things anybody could find out, you know, if they just Googled it.
But it's fun. I love research so it's fun.
Carol Cram
And what was so great about the novel is that you really made art accessible, and I think a lot of that, as you say, had to do with the character of Viv, because she was so irreverent.
Zoe Disigny
Yes. Yes.
Carol Cram
She would say things that weren't art history, and you got a different perspective. You must have had a lot of fun with that character.
Zoe Disigny
I did. She was fun to write. Claire, the art historian, was not as much fun to write. But Viv, I didn't really know—the real person that I based this story on—I didn't really know this woman at all, and I didn't really find out a whole lot about her when we were traveling together.
So, I had to make up her backstory. I made it up as I went along depending on what I thought would make the story more spicy or more interesting or something like that. And that was great fun because I could do anything I wanted. She already was wild and crazy so I could just throw in some more wild and crazy stuff. So yeah, she was fun to write. I'm glad you liked her.
Carol Cram
Oh, very much so. This really was based on when you took somebody around Europe, just like Claire takes Viv around? You did that.
Zoe Disigny
Yes, it really was.
Carol Cram
Yeah. Great job!
Zoe Disigny
Well, at the time, she was so confounding that I really didn't know what to make of her. And it was just one of those bizarre experiences that you never have. I mean, you know, I never had anything like that again. And so, it sticks with you, and you keep thinking about it. And I don't know, it was just a very interesting thing.
Carol Cram
It is extremely. It was, it was a wonderful way of basing your novel in order also to show the development of Claire, which we'll get back to in a minute. But I just wanted to talk a little bit more about the art because I love the inclusion of the four Davids, by Donatello, Michelangelo, Verrocchio, and Bernini, which is a David I had to look up. I have been to the Borghese Gallery, but I don't remember that David. So why four Davids? Why did you decide to include all four in the novel?
Zoe Disigny
Well, you know, I love that you just said that because when I talk to people about my book, inevitably the one comment they make, I mean, like, 90% across the board, is either I never knew there were four Davids, or I loved learning about four Davids. That was the thing that really fascinated people the most.
And that was a real surprise to me because as an art history teacher, when you teach survey of art history, it's a natural, as you're going from proto-Renaissance to Renaissance to Baroque, to take this one subject, which is the same subject, and show how it evolves. And then you have this perfect way to explain how the style grows and changes.
I just didn't know that so many people were not familiar with all of them. I thought maybe Verrocchio would be the one that people would be the least familiar with. But it just seemed like a real natural to me. And in the story, as we're traveling from place to place, that was a perfect way to bring in my not-so-subtle art history lessons that I keep dashing in there by talking about the four Davids.
Carol Cram
It was perfect. And yeah, I was surprised to find out that I really only knew the two—Donatello and Michelangelo. I did not know the other two. And I mean, I love art history and I've studied art history, but for some reason I missed those two. So which David is your favorite or is that even possible?
Zoe Disigny
Oh, isn't that funny? That's a question in the book. Claire asks Viv that. I believe she does. Yeah, that's pretty impossible for me because I like them for different reasons.
I could say that Verrocchio would probably come in last. I think it's an incredible sculpture, but I don't think it does anything to really evolve what we already knew about the Renaissance. I think it's a marvelous comparison to Donatello's in terms of how the two artists were able to depict two very different personalities, and that's wonderful to study, but gosh, I don't know, between Donatello, Michelangelo, and Bernini. I think Bernini is incredible. He has so much emotion and he was such a master of carving marble. I mean, he could make it look like anything and not seen as well in his David, but Apollo and Daphne, you know, that just takes your breath away.
Carol Cram
I've seen that one. Yes.
Zoe Disigny
Yeah, I don't know. They're all great.
Carol Cram
They are all great, and you just bring them alive. So, you know, anybody who's even a little bit interested in art history will love this novel because it teaches you a lot, but it teaches you in an interesting way, which I think is why it's so much fun to read. It's a wonderful travelogue of Italy and art in the 1980s, but it's also the poignant story of one woman's coming to terms with her life. Why did you choose to pair her story with the art history?
Zoe Disigny
I mean, the art historian is based on me. I can be honest about that. And anybody would figure that out when they know I'm an art historian. And I was going through difficult times at the time I was leading that tour. So that was an easy thing for me to bring in. And it was never my intention to do that when I started.
But because I knew so little about what writing a novel really was, I thought my novel was going to be that tour guiding story. And I typed it all up, you know, I mean, I knew it by heart, so I typed it all up, and when I was done embellishing and adding everything, and it was only 20, 000 words, I thought, well, that's not a novel. It didn't have an arc. It was just a travelogue with these two mismatched people.
So, I had to come up with something more than that. And for me, the easiest thing to do is to remember or think about whatever my life was like at the time. And then it seemed like I could tie that in. And it's not my life, but it's based on things that I experienced and feelings I had which made it possible for me to bring that in. I don't know that I would have thought of that otherwise, though.
Carol Cram
Yes, because the journey that you went from writing it down, your first 20, 000 words, to ending up with a novel, I think is very interesting. I read about it in your writer's notes. But tell us a little bit about that, going from your travel to writing a novel, how that all happened.
Zoe Disigny
Oh, it was a mess.
Carol Cram
I bet it was.
Zoe Disigny
It took me nine years to finally get the book published because I had no idea what I was doing. First, I had no idea how to write a novel. I didn't know anything about the publishing industry. I knew nothing about genres.
I read everything. I read across the board. I read anything that sounds interesting. I read nonfiction, fiction, historical fiction, romance. I don't care. I don't pay any attention to what its category is. So, I didn't know any of that. To me, when I look back on it, the way it started was I had this seed. I mean, I thought it was the whole thing, but it was a seed.
And so, I had to sort of nurture it. And what happens, of course, when you grow something, it just goes. So I went everywhere in the wrong direction, sometimes in the right direction, and I'd write these huge things, and then that would make no sense, and I'd have to throw that away, and then I'd write something else, and then I'd go to a conference, and I'd think, Oh, that's what I need to do, and then I'd go back.
It really, truly, you know, was a mess. I was going to say, don't ask me about my writing process. I don't recommend it to anyone.
Carol Cram
I don't think any of us have a clean writing process. I think it's a myth of the person who just sits down and writes a novel. It's not possible. It's messy. It's difficult. It's like bringing up children. You know, it's really, really hard, but good for you because many people can have an idea for a novel and people, I'm sure people come up to you and go, I've got this great idea. You should write it. Yeah, right. But you went beyond that. You learned how to write a novel. And it shows there's a lot to learn, isn't there?
Zoe Disigny
It's not just writing it down. And I think if you never went to school to learn that to begin with, you know, people say, Oh, you know, she just got a master's in creative writing. Who cares? Oh, wow. That's big because there's so much to it that's under the surface like the tip of the iceberg stuff. I had no idea. I still don't know, I'm sure half of it.
Carol Cram
Well, I mean, I learn new things every single day. I'm on my sixth novel, but constantly getting better or hopefully getting better, learning, and growing. This is so much fun. It's a lifelong pursuit. Like me, you've come to this a little bit later. After your main career was over, you decided to write the novel, which I think is very inspiring.
Zoe Disigny
If I get excited about something, I tend to just jump in, and it's usually something I know absolutely nothing about, and I think that's why it excites me, because it's so foreign, and so I'm going to have to learn a lot of stuff. But it's always the hard way, you know, I always do it the hard way, instead of learning about it first and making some rational decisions, and I just don't seem to do it that way.
Carol Cram
I think the creative process is, that’s just what it's like, you know, it just is, as I said, it's messy. So, would you like to do a reading for us from The Art of Traveling Strangers?
Zoe Disigny
I would. It's the very beginning. I just think it at least sets the stage the best that anything could do. So, this is Chapter One, just part of it.
The odor, a peculiar blend of disinfectant, ozone, and jet fuel, tainted the air, but enticed me. I liked the smell of escape.
Taking a deep breath, I pressed my head against the cold window and watched Los Angeles shrink below me into a cubist painting. Those once massive buildings of concrete, glass, and steel were now the abstract geometric shapes of Picasso. I smiled. Life imitating art. That idea had always intrigued me, the belief that art could change our perception of reality. But this time, my attraction to the concept was even stronger. It offered hope. If chaotic LA could transform into a well-designed composition, why couldn't I?
Leaning back in my seat, I embraced the escapist fantasy and pondered the art form I'd want to mimic. Certainly not Cubism. It was too cerebral, and I already spent way too much time in my head. Expressionism was also out, too emotional. But the work of Niki de Saint Phalle struck a chord. She was part of a 20th century art movement intent on creating a new reality. I liked that, and I adored her work. She was known for her whimsical sculptures of triumphant women, an art form I'd be happy to emulate. I envisioned myself as one of her creations: an imposing female figure, wearing bold primary colors, lustrous metallic wings, and twirling confidently on tiptoe. But just as that vision began to take hold, a cabin light above me blinked off.
“Ladies and gentlemen, the captain has turned off the non-smoking sign, and you are free to smoke at this time. Please refrain from smoking in the aisles, lavatories, and non-smoking sections of this aircraft. Thank you for your attention and enjoy your flight.”
Enjoy my flight. Now that posed a challenge. Although I was grateful to be traveling to Europe far from the emotional turmoil of home, my getaway plan had a serious flaw: the thirty-something woman seated next to me.
She chewed her gum with mindless enthusiasm while reading the July issue of Fashion First magazine, apparently to discover the health benefits of crotchless pantyhose. Her name was Viv Chancy, and I, Claire Markham, a thirty -something myself, would be her art guide in Europe for the next three weeks.
Carol Cram
I just love that right at the very beginning, you include Nikki de Sante Phalle. You don't hear her mentioned very often, but she's fabulous. So hopefully that will inspire people to go and look her up. Have you been to her, it's called the Tarot Garden in Tuscany?
Zoe Disigny
No, you know, we're going again, this fall, and I thought maybe it'd be closer to where we're going to be in Tuscany, but it's like a two-hour drive from where we are, but I was thinking, oh, this time I'll get to see it. You know, she has a wonderful piece in Escondido. It's called Queen Califia's Magical Circle. It's near San Diego, but it's this little park. Nobody's there. I mean, it's just sitting in the middle of this park. And it's a similar kind of environment, except smaller, and filled with all her mosaics and every single material you can imagine and these fantastic artworks and composite beasts and impossible-to-understand things. It's so full of fantasy and so full of imagination and life. And it's just delightful and there's never anybody there.
Carol Cram
She's amazing. I'll put links to that one, that garden, and also the Tarot Garden in the show notes. And you know, even if it's a two-hour drive, try and see it.
Zoe Disigny
You've seen it?
Carol Cram
Not the Escondido one, but oh yes, yes, we have been to the Tarot Garden in Tuscany. Yes, I have pictures on my Artsy Traveler website of it, but if you can, go. It's fabulous. It really, really is amazing. Of course, there's her big sculpture in Paris that everybody knows—the Stravinsky fountain. Yeah. So yeah, I love that. I thought this is a great start to a novel, Niki de Sant Phalle! All right! I'm sure I'm not the only one that loved that.
I also like that you include the work of James Turrell, the contemporary artist, who I've only really just heard about. So that was interesting. Where was that again?
Zoe Disigny
That's at Count Panza’s Villa in Varese, which is just outside of Milan. Yeah, it's a really interesting place because it's got this incredibly old, you know, traditional palazzo. And then in it, it's got these super modern things, and you go into each room, and you don't really know what you're going to see.
Some of them are environments were designed specifically for the room. And then other times, it's artworks that he acquired, you know, he was such a great collector. But yeah, it was just a thrill to go there. It's open to the public now, but when I did go, it really wasn't open to the public.
So, it was just my traveling companion and me. And we really did lie down on the floor and look up at James Turrell's skylight.
Carol Cram
That's one place I don't know. We were just in Northern Italy. So next trip, we will seek it out for sure. There's always something new to see in Italy. It's amazing. It always is.
Zoe Disigny
I'll go to see the Tarot sculpture garden, and you can go see Count Panza’s villa and we'll compare notes.
Carol Cram
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, what would you say is the principal theme of The Art of Traveling Strangers?
Zoe Disigny
Well, I guess one of the things that I always was hoping in the end would, I think it's an uplifting story and I wanted it to talk about finding your wings, you know, especially as a woman, especially as a woman from my era. Even though we were all into the women's lib thing and everything, but it doesn't really happen just because you stand around and protest. Your life goes on the way it has gone on for your mom and dad for the most part. And so, some of us took a long time to be able to really become that independent, strong willed, know your own mind, trust your own mind kind of a person. So that's one of themes that runs through it. Of course, the other theme is I just hope I get people to fall in love with art and travel. If that did happen to anybody who reads it, I'd be thrilled. That would be wonderful. Or to get somebody to look up somebody in the book that they were reading about, like Nikki de Sant Phalle, and say, well, I don't know who that is, now I'm curious.
But yeah, I think the main thing is about finding your wings as a woman.
Carol Cram
Yes, it's interesting because it's pretty much a similar theme to my fourth novel, which is my contemporary one called Love Among the Recipes, where a woman of a certain age goes to Paris and she's had a bad marriage and finds herself so it's a timely thing to, even now, you know, it's still definitely something for us, self realization.
I noticed you have a blog called The Art of Visual Listening. Tell us about that.
Zoe Disigny
It's in a series. I think there's 12 in the series, and it's basically an introduction to art, which is what I taught for so many years, at least part of what I taught. And I just think a lot of people, because we don't, we aren't educated in art, really. You know, the last time you take art is kindergarten. Nobody teaches it, and you certainly don't get art history. At least, that's my recollection. My daughter didn't get any of it. So, it's kind of some simple things, but it's the kind of thing where to me, looking at a work of art, if I didn't know anything about a work of art or anything about art or history, oftentimes I would think What's the big deal?
Like Mona Lisa, you know, everybody thinks she's so grand. Well, why in the heck is she so grand? By the way, I don't think she is any more than a lot of other great artworks, but you don't have anything to hold on to. But once you have a few things to hold on to, then it's really fun to look at that art.
You know, you can start analyzing the composition. You can see how clever the artist has been to draw your eye through it. You can start picking out symbolism because you've seen enough works of art that use the same kind of symbolism. It becomes like a treasure hunt, I guess, but you need to know the clues to get there or starting points, for example, use of complementary colors—that’s why it looks so vibrant. That's what it's about. That kind of stuff. Just all those basic elements of art.
Carol Cram
Yes. How to appreciate art. You can find the blog on Zoe's website at zoedisigny dot com and I will have the link in the show notes.
So, as you know, one of my goals with The Art In Fiction Podcast is to inspire other authors. What's one thing you learned from writing your novel that you didn't know before?
Zoe Disigny
Let's see. I didn't know anything before. No, I think the one that I found most astounding. How's that? The one that I found most astounding is the publishing world. It was so foreign to me. I mean, I'm not a businesswoman, so I don't really know a lot about any other businesses, but I know a little bit. I mean, I was in education and that's a bureaucratic business, but it has such strange and arcane and specific things about it that I had no idea. I mean, as I said, I didn't know that if you wrote in a certain genre, certain genres, your book needs to be between this number of words and this number of words.
I didn't know that, and I thought, why? And I didn't understand why there wasn't a genre for my book. My book is, theoretically, women's literary fiction, which tells you absolutely nothing except that it's geared toward women. What I need is a genre that says women's literary art, travel, education, fiction.
Then you know what you're going to read. Anyway, so all that stuff was real crazy- making to me, and I thought a lot, while I was going through this, about the self publishing that is becoming so prevalent and how the traditional publishers, the few that are left, are scrambling to figure out how they fit into this new game.
And it just reminded me of the Impressionists, you know, in the 19th century in France. There was the Salon, which was the same as our publishers today, and you could not get anyone to see your artwork unless the Salon accepted you. And, of course, tons of people got rejected and no one ever knew their work.
And it's very much like our publishing system, but it's changing. The independent publishers are getting a chance to put their work out there where they never would have gotten a chance before. So, it's exciting.
Carol Cram
Well, and it keeps changing, and I agree. I love that we all have choices now as authors. There's not just one way, there's many different ways of getting your work out there.
Zoe Disigny
I agree, it's a very exciting time.
Carol Cram
On that note, what advice would you have for someone such as yourself who came to writing relatively late in life, like, after your main career?
Zoe Disigny
I don't think it's a great idea to jump in feet first, which is what I did. Although I talked to somebody the other day and she said, well, you know, if you hadn't have done that, you would never have written the book.
Carol Cram
That's right.
Zoe Disigny
That might be true. But it really helps to know some people that have written books. I mean I didn't even know anybody who'd written a novel. To have some people who've written books, to know somebody who works in the publishing industry, to talk to a bookseller. Go into your bookstore and talk to a bookseller and ask them some questions - I didn't do any of that.
And I think, especially later in life where you don't have a lot of time to do a lot of things, I think it would be wise to start cultivating people, people that can not only help you maybe to find an agent or something, but can show you the ropes. And I found a wonderful woman, when I was more than halfway through the book, and we've become fast friends.
Her book was published just before me, we're almost the same age, and it was her first novel. And oh my gosh, everything she could tell me was gold. And she just means the world to me. And I thought, shoot, I wish I had known her before we started writing. We could have done the whole thing together.
Carol Cram
So that's good advice. And I totally agree with that. Like I said, I have a much broader range of people in my life, mostly virtual, but that's okay, of other authors. I was like you; I didn't know any authors really until I became one myself. I mean, I was always a writer, but not in fiction.
Surrounding yourself with like-minded people who are doing what you're doing and writing novels and learning and growing. That's gold. Going to a lot of conferences is a good idea, taking courses, etc. But yeah, finding other people who are doing what you're doing. This is why I have The Art In Fiction Podcast. I just want to talk about writing with people. So, what are you working on now, Zoe? Are you working on a new novel?
Zoe Disigny
I am. I am working on a sequel. It took me a couple of years to recover from finishing the first one. But I also was really stuck. I had thought I wanted to write a sequel because I think my story lends itself to a sequel and I like writing about art, obviously, so that would be a natural direction for me to continue in. And since my book ends in Paris, I don't think that spoils it for anybody, I thought the sequel would start in Paris. It ends up starting ten years later. And so, Claire, the art historian, goes to Paris, and has a whole new adventure mostly in Paris, with a few side trips. I'm not that far into the details yet, but mostly in Paris. And again, not with Viv, but with some other students. And it'll be their journeys together through the artwork that they encounter.
Carol Cram
Sounds wonderful. Anything set in Paris, I love.
Zoe Disigny
I know, me too!
Carol Cram
Well, thank you so much, Zoe, for chatting with me. This has been so much fun.
Zoe Disigny
Thanks, Carol, and I'm so happy to finally get to see you face to face.
Carol Cram
I’ve been speaking with Zoe Disigny, author of The Art of Traveling Strangers, listed in the Visual Arts category on Art In Fiction at www.artinfiction.com.
Be sure to check the show notes for a link to Zoe’s website at zoedisigny.com. You’ll also find a link to a 20% discount on a subscription to Pro Writing Aid, a fantastic editing tool for writers.
If you are enjoying The Art In Fiction Podcast, please help us keep the lights on by donating a coffee on the Ko-Fi website. The link is in the show notes.
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